Solid Wood Dovetail Drawer Boxes Definition
Are Solid Forest Dovetailed Drawers Worth Information technology?
Cabinetmakers talk over the cost and value of various drawer materials and construction methods. February 28, 2012
Question
I accept been doing some higher end kitchens lately. The designer (being ignorant to methods and engineered wood) has me making solid walnut or oak drawer boxes. I am getting fix to starting time some other kitchen, and wondering if anyone has opinions on using these woods for drawers.
I have had bang-up results so far, no bounden or warping. But it has only been a couple of years since I started building these. I dovetail every side, even the back. I apply v sided drawers and so I can supervene upon the face if necessary without destroying the whole box.
I accept tried to convince him to use laminated boxes, and edgeband the peak edges to look solid. Is this worth it? Volition it take more fourth dimension than solid? Of course, the problem is the dovetails will testify the laminate construction. I may be better off sticking with solid wood.
I have been using 1/2" textile for drawers nether eight" high, or under 15" wide, and 3/4" for annihilation bigger. Another selection nosotros have been trying is retrofitted boxes, to sit inside existing plywood boxes with a lip to cover the laminate. They come flush with the face on the top, and really make a overnice product. The picture is of my showtime kitchen. Y'all tin can run into why he wants solid drawers!
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Forum Responses
(Cabinetmaking Forum)
From correspondent D:
What kind of guide system are you using on those drawers? I assume a quality soft close undermount such equally Blum Tandem. With that type of guide, the heaven is the limit on what type of drawer material and construction method for your drawer system. I have a preference for matching the drawer fabric to the exterior wood and a dovetail e'er seems like the choice for solid forest.
Prefinished plywood would be a good selection in a painted look kitchen, either doweled or spiral pocket for construction, peculiarly if you are using prefinished plywood on the box interiors.
Why do yous fit a laminate box inside another box? Melamine or HP laminate can make a good drawer in itself, with the proper construction method.
About of the wood drawers we install are either solid dovetail, outsourced, or prefinished ply doweled and banded with either matching 1mm PVC or 1mm forest, virtually always on Blum Tandems.
From the original questioner:
The box-in-a-box is just an optional upgrade for clients not ready to replace the whole kitchen, or for larger top drawers. It was an thought of the designer.
I apply undermount gliders, although sometimes side mount heavy duty soft close slides. I know what you mean about undermount. Even if the drawer swells, it still slides fine in the opening. With side mount, it can demark if information technology swells.
I prefer to make my ain drawers. I don't outsource annihilation. At this point, the clients desire to know the aforementioned guy made every slice, and I work alone. And then I can honestly say my easily formed and cutting every slice, and set every screw. Information technology is an honor, since I know many larger outfits take no option simply to outsource doors and drawers. At that point, all you are is a box maker, in my opinion. The skill is in the design and installation, equally well as the components. Drawers get a lot of abuse. I know even in some of the all-time outfits, seldom do they dovetail the back of the drawer, since it is seldom seen. But I do it but to be safe. And for that extra point of quality.
Since I buy s2s cloth, so aeroplane, articulation and sand it to shape, every drawer box takes me most an hour. I would go eaten alive if I tried to market that to the average homeowner. But I have no employees, and piffling overhead, so I tin take my time and do it right.
From contributor One thousand:
I build 5/8 maple dovetail front end and back, standard, no exceptions. I do residential only. I utilize undermount soft close.
Some clients ask if I can drib my quote. No discounts - it is what it is. If they want something else, find the boxmaker down the street. We also build our own doors and mill our own moldings.
From contributor 50:
My standard drawer is made from Euro maple, v/viii" nine ply. It is tough stuff. I leave the laminations showing. I like the look and it makes for a drawer with a lot less labor in it. It comes in 4x8 sheets, so you lot just rip it to width and cut it to length and it is ready for the dovetail car.
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From contributor I:
Nosotros use v/8" solid beech. I take made thousands of boxes this way and not had a trouble. We dovetail only and utilise both side and undermount. Nosotros use standard four", 6" and viii" material simply make any size needed. I wouldn't utilise anything else. I don't similar the look of laminated end grain. We as well don't outsource anything, and we install all our ain cabinets.
From contributor A:
Contributor Fifty, y'all could upgrade to real maple if you switched to typical box construction. LOL
From the original questioner:
Yeah, laminate is very sturdy, just endeavour selling that to a designer. No way. Besides, I have to work with enough engineered wood. Information technology'due south overnice to see a finished box of solid wood. We only make 1 kind of cabinet, then I seldom have to modify any methods or materials.
From contributor East:
Correspondent L, those drawers look great! Where practise y'all get the Euro maple?
From contributor Fifty:
The Euro maple I get is from Atlantic plywood. It has gone upwards in price quite a flake since I started to use information technology. Used to be $77 a sail and at present information technology has surpassed $110. And then information technology is simply most the same price as solid stock. But y'all save all the labor needed to procedure solid stock. A light sanding with 220 is all y'all need.
I have tried the Baltic birch and it works. But what I hate about it is the birch is really fragile on the edges and has a tendency to fleck. What I especially detest is when you are sanding the corners to suspension the edges, yous go those spear slivers. Those suckers really hurt. Doesn't happen with the Euro maple.
Contributor A, they can get annihilation they desire, every bit long as they want to pay for it. The Euro maple dovetail drawer with Blum soft close slides is my standard.
From the original questioner:
Yeah, those boxes look cracking. I am not opposed to laminate. Personally, I call back it is a improve product than solid wood - menses. But clients like bragging rights - ones with money practice anyhow. I find it sad really. They will fork over big bucks for solid drawers that never get seen, then skimp on the exterior and paint them! I see this a lot with designers.
We just got done painting almost $200,000 worth of clear finished fir. Huge beams and panels, soffits, cabinets. All washed to perfection, not i knot in the house. The firm was two years old. The new owners wanted information technology brightened upwardly. It was a existent bummer.
Anyway, I see that it becomes a pissing match between solid or engineered boxes. Information technology shouldn't be. Nobody is incorrect; it all comes down to what the client wants. I would use ply boxes if I had the money to refinish my kitchen. Just because I don't feel the demand to brag about solid wood. It saves money and trees!
Beneath, note what I mean. The cabinet was a linen drawer setup for a client, using solid white oak drawer boxes� and MDF fronts! What a contrast of quality!
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From contributor South:
Solid walnut is overkill for a drawer box. I would utilize it if a customer insisted, only otherwise I would get for either soft or hard maple. Poplar or ash are other possibilities.
I don't listen building a dovetailed drawer box from solid wood. Otherwise I utilize Baltic birch plywood.
Nosotros have a commercially made vanity in our house that is a couple of decades old and the drawers are just particleboard, stapled with lap joints, and lots of hot melt. The bottom panel even on the narrower drawers is either i/2" or five/8" particleboard rebated into the groove and glued with hot cook all the way effectually on all 4 edges on the bottom of the drawer. I have to say they feel solid, and accept held up simply fine.
From contributor Chiliad:
Doesn't matter what you want to build. Build what the designer wants. If you don't, someone else will. Just brand certain you lot upcharge for those walnut drawers.
From contributor Y:
First of all I don't consider a painted finish kitchen like you showed all that loftier stop. I exercise not mean it doesn't expect great - your piece of work looks great. But dovetailed hardwood drawers seems kind of odd in a pigment form kitchen.
I practice not like to use laminate (I presume you mean melamine?) in a squeamish kitchen. Nice Baltic birch ply is non much more expensive and looks great dovetailed.
I would tell the designer/contractor that softwood and plywood are meliorate structurally than hardwoods for drawers. I suspect he volition believe you. If he insists on hardwood for the visual effect, so you shouldn't contend with him. Dovetailed hardwood volition agree up for decades.
I try to rip, cut and aeroplane my lumber a week before I make doors or drawers. This gives fourth dimension for any stress to prove and any bad kiln work to start to show. So the same twenty-four hour period we make the doors/drawers, we give the lumber a final dressing in the planer and re-articulation as needed.
I am located in southeast Asia so I use a lot of teak, mahogany, and other jungle woods. Kiln drying is very unreliable too. Most homes here cycle between the extreme humidity of a jungle and the dry out cool air workout on a monthly basis. This all ways I accept to bargain with extreme wood movement. I employ dowels for well-nigh of my drawers and never have failures. Dovetails are even better, but not necessary from a practical standpoint.
Suggest to your customer that using ply or softwoods will save them money and it is a improve apply of these rare resources. Well-nigh volition answer to the notion that prissy wood is a rare and valuable natural resource that needs to exist conserved so that future generations tin enjoy information technology besides. Glad yous are keeping high standards in your shop. I hope you have continued successes.
From the original questioner:
I don't see why a painted kitchen can't be high end. If you saw the paint job in oil, y'all may call back otherwise. It is really beautiful. Although it gets paint, I used premium materials underneath. More money goes into the mouldings and details than the cabinets, most of the time. I hold in conserving resource, only the designer wants what he wants. I don't mind; it's more than money for me. I relish using solid stock.
Oak is plentiful; many tropical forest are non. I live in the Pacific Northwest... No shortage of oak here!
I have discussed using plywood with the designer, merely honestly, I am actually glad he stuck with solid. It is much more personal than all that laminated crap. I similar taking my time and feeling out the forest and grain patterns. As well, they feel much more solid than ply. Our kitchens are $785 a human foot, and then we can afford to spend the extra money on material. If I am going to dovetail them anyway, I don't desire all those plies showing in the finished product.
From contributor Y:
Sad - I did not hateful that all painted kitchens are non loftier end. The pictured kitchen appears to be a simple primed and sprayed single colour end. Also at that place are not a lot of moulding details. I used to do a lot of multi-stride painted/glazed/rubbed and distressed finishes. Those definitely cost more (I tend to ascertain high end by the price). A single color painted terminate with some basic moldings is one step above a laminate euro kitchen in my volume. I charge a lot more for stain course. I would also never paint expensive hardwoods. Maple and poplar were my choices in the US.
I am non suggesting the kitchen is non squeamish. I would be proud to have my company name on that picture. I am suggesting dovetailed hardwood drawers are a lilliputian out of range for that type of kitchen. If the client wants to pay for the upgrade I will put my all-time drawer in my cheapest chiffonier, but for about jobs it would add 20 or 40% to the cost. The kitchen shown would price considerably less if I used system drawers or doweled ply boxes vs. dovetailed hardwood.
Again the customer usually gets what they want, but I would never try to sell such an "upgrade." I would tell the customer we could spend that coin on nicer hardware or something else. I as well think that all the drawer methods discussed so far are equally durable, so why waste product the lumber and cash on something like that?
From contributor K:
Both ply and hardwood have to be dovetailed, sanded and finished. You have a lot more than finishing options with solid - edges, inlays, etc. The corporeality of time banding/trimming is get-go by the planing of solid, which reduces sanding. We do both, and there's really not a huge time savings. So it comes downwardly to materials, and in my opinion, in that location'due south non plenty there for the customer to surrender solid.
I've never placed a finished solid wood box next to a ply box and thought it looked better. The same way I wouldn't with a door. More often than not, I think "what did you do, run out of money?" The customer thinks of it as cheaper, not because information technology is engineered with less enthusiasm, only considering it is made with cheaper materials and associated with lower-end. And when they are spending thousands on a kitchen, saving a couple hundred bucks max by using ply versus solid doesn't make much sense.
Kind of like ownership a Mercedes and getting standard material interiors. You tin can practise it, but is that what a Mercedes is all about? For some, aye. They would just rather be able to say they accept a Mercedes.
To me, it'southward non just nigh the dovetail drawers but rather what else goes within - the complete package, similar cutlery dividers, plate dividers, etc. that they will prove off to those visiting their dwelling. Looking at a beautiful outside and then opening the drawers to the same ply boxes that are in low-stop kitchens makes an touch, and commonly not every bit good of 1.
Wood is a replenishable resource that neither generation has to necessarily conserve or do without. If one has to conserve it, why not the other?
To answer the original question� "Solid dovetailed drawer boxes; worth information technology?" If for no other reason than marketing... Yes! Our manufacture spent a long time convincing customers of the merit of solid wood. Trying to reverse course now would well-nigh likely be met with suspicion of the i who really benefits.
If a couple hundred is that important when spending thousands, so be it. Naught wrong with giving them the option. Just be careful when the contest comes along and offers it for the same cost with solid. Better off only closing it correct at that place and so.
From correspondent J:
Contributor Y, so you're saying that a flush inset confront frame kitchen with mortised butt hinges, hand fitted applied molding doors, carvings, fluted columns, all hand brushed on site is not a high end kitchen and non worthy of a couple hundred dollar upgrade to solid dovetailed drawers? I take to wonder if you fifty-fifty know what you're looking at or how many man hours such a project takes, and how much money a project like that actually costs.
From contributor Y:
Sorry, I did not see the carved caps and did non discover the doors were inset. I was replying from an Iphone (small-scale screen). I have fabricated such doors (merely 3 or 4 times in the last 10 years) then I do know how much work it is. And those doors about always crave hand trimming with planes, pregnant it takes a lot of skill.
I would not push solid wood drawers for kitchen cabinetry. I tin can make drawers (dovetailed or doweled) much faster from ply. I can rip, groove and cutting to length a sheet of drawer parts in thirty minutes. It takes me at to the lowest degree an additional ii or three hours to turn solid forest (clean S4S is not available in my market, and then I start from iv/4 crude lumber). Also I have establish it prudent to pre-mill all lumber a week before the projection starts to minimize movement problems later on. Add to that the trip to the lumberyard and sorting out defects and� I think you lot get my point. Information technology takes me a lot more time to brand solid wood drawers. Perchance y'all guys have meliorate machines or know something well-nigh milling lumber I take yet to learn.
In America I used to push button dovetails. Almost every customer had to be educated on what a dovetail joint even is! Information technology took me years to realize that I was not offer something the client really wanted - I was just creating more work for myself. Sometimes I convinced them that dovetails are amend, but I suspect I lost work by pushing the client'southward budget in a direction they didn't really care about; and dovetails are only one of these "false value added" upgrades I tried to sell. It is the equivalent of a car salesman pushing a backup camera or the famous undercoating.
I have standard pricing for dovetail drawers (solid or ply), so if the client asks I will quote information technology accordingly. In fact I have a mahogany dovetail drawer in my showroom forth with melamine, ply and system drawers. In the last 2 years I accept simply had contractors comment on the dovetailed drawer. They never want me to utilize them, rather they were impressed that we offered information technology every bit an pick.
Instead I listen to the clients and endeavour to sell them what they want. They usually prove an interest in the finishing, hardware and most of all the overall design. I have a licensed professional designer (she is talented likewise). I sell her service more than anything else. I exercise not bore them with details about our construction techniques. If they are curious I explain in very simple terms. Even amend I have professionally designed marketing materials that do this for me using pictures and simple language. It is all put in our pretty company folder with our company contour and other information they may or may not be interested in. I spend our valuable confront time trying to uncover the details locked in their brains that they did not know to say. Most of this relates to pattern, not engineering.
It sounds similar this designer likes dovetailed drawers, so sell them what they want. If you lot don't want to make them, or if you can not make the aforementioned margins when making them, propose they consider an culling. Simply I would not shoot a gift horse in the oral cavity.
Similar I said, I would exist proud to have my name associated with the kitchen y'all made, and I do non offer such compliments ofttimes. If dovetails are what they want, and so do information technology. I am guessing the client was willing to pay for it. I think well-nigh clients would exist just equally happy with doweled ply. I likewise remember doweled ply drawers will concluding just equally long and will have a reduced risk of callbacks due to warping and groovy.
From contributor F:
Solid wood dovetail drawers are worth it. All of my clients desire them if I don't charge actress. I now use horrible cheap looking plywood drawers.
You are doing some nice piece of work merely you should probably pay a piffling more than attention to details, especially in the planning stages. Your kitchen higher up looks nice simply I noticed that yous fabricated the upper cabinets on the left of the picture too long and your cabinet crown had to cope to the door casing. This type of thing tin plow a high finish kitchen into an boilerplate one. It should not be done. Do you use software to pattern? The software tin can brand you aware of mistakes similar that before you build the task.
From contributor Grand:
Perception is reality... Lower-cease cabinets use the cheapest materials (i.e. - melamine/ply). The majority of refacers utilise the same for the same reason. A good refacer can brand some shabby cabs expect like a bang-up set of cabinets. It'southward what happens when you open up the doors where the rest of the story is told. Most refacers don't do the within edges, then yous can tell they are refaced and it diminishes the overall project.
Same goes with ply boxes. If yous band information technology and dovetail information technology, it draws attention, and if you don't ring information technology, you nonetheless see the ply edges. And that is what people seeing it will compare information technology to. It kind of smacks the projection in the face, when they spent thousands on a kitchen, and salve a couple of hundred bucks to go from solid forest to ply? It'due south all in the details and what sets you apart (both practiced and bad).
Will information technology make a difference in the function? Not in the least. Will it affect its perceived value? Beauty is in the center of the beholder. And perception is reality (a perception/reality nosotros every bit an manufacture created).
From the original questioner:
As for the kitchen in the picture, I actually did all the finish and some doors. The boxes were all done by a professional store, and since they messed up on the blueprint, they had to come back and fill some spots in. I spent more than time on the moulding than they did on the whole kitchen. This is why I began doing kitchens; I realized what they are passing off as quality. So the design was messed upward by someone else.
And correspondent Y, if you think dovetails are a perceived value, you are perceiving that doweled plywood boxes are quality. They are fabricated for a reason, and it'due south non decoration. Accept you ever tried to break a dovetail drawer? Then a doweled plywood one? Sure, plywood will hold up and function fine. Simply dovetails are far from being ornamental.
Real customers in the right circles know exactly what they want. And they are educated. They exercise understand the difference in quality - it is common sense. If it was just for decoration, we would glue fake dovetails on a stapled plywood box. Your average homeowner may accept never heard of a dovetail, but head to the squeamish function of town, and that changes. These are the people that pull out their drawers to show their neighbors that there are dovetails in the back!
From the original questioner:
Is information technology worth dovetailing the back of the drawers? How many of you practise that? I just do it as a standard without thinking twice. In fact, it might be easier considering the parts are interchangeable. For instance, if you lot screw upwardly a dovetail you lot can put it to the back of the chiffonier. And if you are already set up with the jig, why rabbet the back? It just takes a minute to cut a set up of dovetails.
Also, how many of you make v sided drawers compared to 4 sided? I retrieve 5 sided drawers are more forgiving, but am curious how many customers care if the front is integrated?
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From contributor Y:
Are dovetails stronger than dowels? Sure. A car made out of tool grade steel would also be stronger, as would be a firm made from copper plated bandage iron. An engineer once told me that a 10 year quondam kid can design a long span span. The trick is to brand it using the least amount of materials and work while maintaining strength and beauty.
If I understand you lot correctly, I accept likely made a lot more dovetailed drawers than you. Earlier I fabricated my own I ordered them from DBS and Conestoga. I had one of the first Thermwood routers running nested dovetails. The tooling was still experimental at that time. I never had a dovetail box fail. But guess what? I have never had the dowels on a melamine box neglect either. I take had all kinds of other failures, just no dowel failures. My signal is justifying dovetails because they are stronger is featherbrained. I agree they are more than beautiful and my personal kitchen has them. I will exist paw cutting dovetails this week for my personal cigar box! And it is all purely aesthetic.
Again, I repent for my comments near paint grade cabinetry. Your original postal service seemed to bespeak you do not want to use hardwood for your drawers. I agree that is unnecessary and likely less reliable than ply boxes. I also agree with the thought that dovetailed, hardwood drawer boxes seem unnecessary on a paint grade task. In fact I adopt to use maple or beech so it will lucifer better.
If you are justifying dovetails because it makes a better engineered cabinet, I do not hold. But if y'all are proverb dovetails denote a higher terminate job, I do concur.
If yous already decided you want to brand hardwood dovetailed drawer boxes, become for it. If you want to hear from the experience of others, read these posts. In the end information technology is your choice to make. In my instance, despite making very nice kitchens, I quit pushing dovetails.
Contributor F summed it up perfectly: "All of my clients want them if I don't accuse extra." That, my friend, is definitely not a value added service. Offering to do extra work that the customer will non pay extra for is a waste. It is bad business concern. If your clients will pay for it, then sell information technology. That is what I do.
From contributor K:
Better way is to accuse for drawers... Period. The value is then built in. In that location is not a significantly measurable difference between solid wood and ply dovetail drawers, and then therefore, the price difference would exist negligible for the textile.
Present your best product at the price yous need to operate. Only like wood, once you take information technology off, it'south hard to get back on once again. So better to outset off with solid woods dovetails, and work dorsum from there. Therefore, you lot don't take to include dovetails at the lower toll, but rather they stride downwards from the ideal to get the better toll, and yous don't pay for information technology, negotiating at a loss.
Start off with melamine boxes, doweled or not, and and then when they hit you with "I desire solid wood dovetails, simply I desire information technology at this price," you will find information technology much harder to regain coin lost. Don't put yourself in the position when negotiating of beingness the party who is giving up something.
From the original questioner:
Everyone is right hither; I can't compare my solid drawers in Portland to somebody's plywood drawers in another city across the land or globe. We all have what works for the states.
That said, I agree with starting with the all-time materials and working dorsum from there. Information technology allows us more flexibility for sure, without having to enhance our prices. If yous commencement with the all-time, and your price works, you are in a good position. But I know that many chiffonier builders employ what they know, and what they are used to. This is the same for all phases of carpentry.
Contributor Y, yous are correct, you have probably done a 1000 more than boxes than me. Information technology'south only that I started out using solid wood, and I accept never used plywood before. I don't care either fashion. The designer decides that unremarkably, although I do endeavour to educate him.
I estimate now that I have thought about it, our kitchens are sold on our hardware and drawer materials. We take paint course faces, cypher special. I prefer to use melamine on all my carcasses, though many consider it a cheap material. I look at it like annihilation else - what is going to requite the all-time result? While wet melamine could be a nightmare, I meet no utilize in painting the within of the cabinets. And then I utilize it. The same tin exist said about plywood. It is probably a much better product for drawer boxes, but to most consumers it is all nearly what they tin can see.
So my point is, every architect has his own methods; whatever works for you. I can come across now that the cost for material is the same, and the labor is about the aforementioned. One affair is the prep work for the rough lumber, but I could prep a whole kitchen worth of drawers in a few hours, just planing and jointing to rough dimensions.
And so for at present I will stick with solid, and if a hereafter client wants to relieve coin, I can start there and piece of work my manner downwardly to his upkeep if I so desire. I call up that's the way to go. This is even so all relatively new to me, and then it'south expert to accept input.
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